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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
I think anarchy is going to ensue either way. The country probably hasn't been this divided since the civil war. Probably more so.
I'm coming from the point of view of someone who was very Eurosceptic. I didn't (and don't) like the rise of the populists and the extreme right in Europe: Italy, Greece, France, Hungary etc. I did think that I didn't want to be part of a Union that had those elements on the increase. I hold my hands up and confess I knew nothing of WTO rules. The Remain campaign hardly mentioned it. 'Leave' made out it was simple to switch. And also said that a deal with the EU was the easiest thing in the world.
Both campaigns were poorly run, but the Leave side had a brilliant strategist and a slogan that resounded: Take Back Control. We also know they lied through their teeth and broke several electoral laws. I truly believe that since then more and more information has come forth about how it will actually affect us all. There is no plan. If the likes of Gove, Johnson, Davis etc could actually show me their plan even now, I'd give it a read. But there was no plan. There still isn't. There were a lot of people wanting to 'stick it' to the elite, without realising they were playing into the hands of the even more elite.
I don't dispute that it was a democratic vote. I would say it wasn't a very informed vote. And even Farage said that a vote this close would be cause for a second referendum, until he realised he was on the winning side. I don't think there will be another, although we do vote over and over on other things, such as general elections. I know one thing: the next government has an impossible task. It has to try and bring together a country that will be divided for decades to come. I think the Brexiteers victory fireworks on March 29th will signal the start of a very dark period in our history.
Very much agree with your post, the more we learn about the realities of Brexit the less attractive it looks, there is much not to like about the EU, but even less to jumping knowingly into chaos.
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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
Accepted.
I just like fairness. I'm not too fussed about spelling, until someone leaps on another for what is hardly a capital offence. Especially if they've been remiss in that area.
Just fairness.
The lower case t was the capital offence!
touché
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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
There is still the European Intervention Initiative, which some Brexiteers fear will be a 'back door' to a European army. We'll be involved in that, with or without Brexit.
Although, if we are attacked by Russia, or some such agency, I'd be quite happy that the rest of Europe will be on our side.
Exactly. If there is a European Army (big IF), I'd much rather we were in it than sitting on the periphery!
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Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty
There is still the European Intervention Initiative, which some Brexiteers fear will be a 'back door' to a European army. We'll be involved in that, with or without Brexit.
Although, if we are attacked by Russia, or some such agency, I'd be quite happy that the rest of Europe will be on our side.
The EU, or rather Germany has already made agreements with some of the other member countries, for them to allow their elite forces to be trained in Germany. An article I read some while ago, claimed that under the German Armed Forces agreement, German soliders are allowed to choose which battles they want to fight in and also that German troops cannot be managed by any other country.
Europe is unlikely to enter into another war in the near future - but if we were attacked by any of our EU members, then I, as a British patriot and staunch supporter of Brexit would help to defend our country. However, I am no fool - if Russia was forced into a corner and attacked Europe , as things stand at present - I would defect and fast!
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Originally Posted by said
The EU, or rather Germany has already made agreements with some of the other member countries, for them to allow their elite forces to be trained in Germany. An article I read some while ago, claimed that under the German Armed Forces agreement, German soliders are allowed to choose which battles they want to fight in and also that German troops cannot be managed by any other country.
Europe is unlikely to enter into another war in the near future - but if we were attacked by any of our EU members, then I, as a British patriot and staunch supporter of Brexit would help to defend our country. However, I am no fool - if Russia was forced into a corner and attacked Europe , as things stand at present - I would defect and fast!
It won't be Eu other member state that will be fighting each other.
It will be Tribalism and Civil war within EU States.
When immigrants are treated shamefully it breeds hate and revenge.
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Originally Posted by Hamble
It won't be Eu other member state that will be fighting each other.
It will be Tribalism and Civil war within EU States.
When immigrants are treated shamefully it breeds hate and revenge.
You are anti free movement, yet concerned for the plight of immigrants, with one hand you wish to halt or certainly slow immigration yet support immigrants on the other hand.
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Originally Posted by said
The EU, or rather Germany has already made agreements with some of the other member countries, for them to allow their elite forces to be trained in Germany. An article I read some while ago, claimed that under the German Armed Forces agreement, German soliders are allowed to choose which battles they want to fight in and also that German troops cannot be managed by any other country.
Europe is unlikely to enter into another war in the near future - but if we were attacked by any of our EU members, then I, as a British patriot and staunch supporter of Brexit would help to defend our country. However, I am no fool - if Russia was forced into a corner and attacked Europe , as things stand at present - I would defect and fast!
Germany is currently the lead in the rapid reaction force in Europe, not surprisingly other European and NATO forces train with them, initially German armed forces were not permitted to operate out of country, however they are now and have been for some time full members of NATO and have done peace keeping duties in their own right in many other countries, under the command of whoever has the lead role in that duty, I just can't imagine this country coming under attack from any EU country.
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Thank you for the information. I do not believe that any war will be as it has in the past. There will not be a mass invasion and superiority of weapons any more. Just take out the satellites and pull the plug on main computers!
The past two World Wars could not have been imagined, especially as Germany and Russia was associated with the UK through Royal blood.
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Originally Posted by silver fox
You are anti free movement, yet concerned for the plight of immigrants, with one hand you wish to halt or certainly slow immigration yet support immigrants on the other hand.
Germany and other EU states needed immigration their birthrate was low.
The UK did not and do not the birthrate is here is still high.
The migrants coming to the UK from the EU are in the majority Economic as they (whether EU born or not) most have EU born children
or as students who sometimes return.
Free movement simply has not meant a multicultural EU workforce
of skilled workers that is left to the rest of the world and jobs on merit.
Why would high achieving nationals emigrate by choice to the UK in droves?
The language barrier and social benefit of State Nationals leave their own poor and migrant community.
The EU is just a bank of workers already 2nd class citizens in their own country by measure of skills wealth and increasingly as non EU born
non host country language speaking.
My view on immigrants is not hard to understand if you accept my view that a constant stream of economic migrants causes rationing in public services hitting the poorest already here(including those migrants arriving before them.)
Change is needed and I do not believe it can happen without ending the free movement cycle.
Finally-when Europeans are beastly to their poor and migrants guess who they turn on?
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Originally Posted by silver fox
You are anti free movement, yet concerned for the plight of immigrants, with one hand you wish to halt or certainly slow immigration yet support immigrants on the other hand.
Another point re EU migrants.
The Gov tried to help out those living below the poverty line.
Often one family member working.
Free pre school nursery hours was to aid 2nd parent into work as the reason for 'unable to work'.
The reasons though are more than just childcare of infants.
Largest is Cultural it is still a woman stays in the home for many.
Also the language barrier.
Many EU migrants born out of the EU are not bilingual before moving to the UK.
Lack of transport and being the main carer for other school age children in the family is still keeping poor migrants poor.
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The petition reached 100,000! Let's hope it gets a debate in parliament
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Originally Posted by K-T
The petition reached 100,000! Let's hope it gets a debate in parliament
If not - you can always join the Quakers.
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