Is China hiding COVID-19 death toll? 21 million cell phones disappeared,

[Toodles McGinty]

Our system of government is too centralized. It is democratic to the limited extent that we will have a general election by and by, with more-or-less universal suffrage. The reality is, however, that sophisticated manipulation and institutional insulation (from popular grievances) have resulted in our enduring a long succession of policy-making caprice and political polarization. "The harms have been accumulating over decades."

I have indicated some of my preferences for reform in lapsed threads.
[For the sake of completeness, a link. ]

The problem with reform is, even though most of us want it, the party in power is never too keen on it. Again, whatever their political colours.

It makes no sense to them to reform a system that has put them in power in the first place. Unless, bizarrely, we get an honest decent government. And there's about as much chance of that as me personally becoming PM.

Of course there are politicians whose intention it is to serve. But ideals are usually a luxury for minority parties.

My personal preference is for PR, but that isn't without problems. But a system where a party that receives less than 44% of the vote winning an 80 seat majority is broken. Reform is necessary, from local government up. Won't happen, though.

[sandGroundZero]

Regarding post #50:

"The problem with reform is, even though most of us want it, the party in power is never too keen on it. Again, whatever their political colours.
It makes no sense to them to reform a system that has put them in power in the first place. Unless, bizarrely, we get an honest decent government. And there's about as much chance of that as me personally becoming PM.
"Of course there are politicians whose intention it is to serve. But ideals are usually a luxury for minority parties.
"My personal preference is for PR, but that isn't without problems. But a system where a party that receives less than 44% of the vote winning an 80 seat majority is broken. Reform is necessary, from local government up. Won't happen, though."

What you've written is true enough. So, it will be necessary to create popular demand for reform. From my perspective though, the reform most people imagine — PR and generally tinkering at the edges — won't make the difference they wish for.

I strongly believe local government reform is the first step and the key to further reforms. It is important to engage citizens in their local administrations. That requires making local government more

1. accessible;
2. responsive; and perhaps even
3. moderately diverting?

I believe technology provides a way to achieve those objectives. Engaged citizens have incentive to become more knowledgeable. The political scientists' ideal of the informed voter becomes conceivable.

[said]

Regarding post #50:

"The problem with reform is, even though most of us want it, the party in power is never too keen on it. Again, whatever their political colours.
It makes no sense to them to reform a system that has put them in power in the first place. Unless, bizarrely, we get an honest decent government. And there's about as much chance of that as me personally becoming PM.
"Of course there are politicians whose intention it is to serve. But ideals are usually a luxury for minority parties.
"My personal preference is for PR, but that isn't without problems. But a system where a party that receives less than 44% of the vote winning an 80 seat majority is broken. Reform is necessary, from local government up. Won't happen, though."

What you've written is true enough. So, it will be necessary to create popular demand for reform. From my perspective though, the reform most people imagine — PR and generally tinkering at the edges — won't make the difference they wish for.

I strongly believe local government reform is the first step and the key to further reforms. It is important to engage citizens in their local administrations. That requires making local government more

1. accessible;
2. responsive; and perhaps even
3. moderately diverting?

I believe technology provides a way to achieve those objectives. Engaged citizens have incentive to become more knowledgeable. The political scientists' ideal of the informed voter becomes conceivable.

So you are saying that local councils should be given more power? The majority of local council employees do not have a clue as to Political Governance - they merely follow rules.

There was ample time for people to become more knowledgeable when the referendum to leave the EU came around. Few bothered - and then screamed loudly ' But we did not know' As for your claim that the voting was around 50/50, that was true. But that also took into account over 5 million votes submitted from the colonies and the ex-pats, the majority of which were for remaining in the EU. Understandably, these people were unaware of the arguments for leaving since the only information they had access to was from the BBC overseas broadcasts. The actual vote of people living in the UK was therefore much higher once that number was subtracted, and the arguments for leaving were far higher than the numbers quoted. Once the voting had been held, it was also revealed just how many very wealthy people had used their influence in order to remain in the EU - because they had vested interests in it. So, on bare facts alone - it is obvious that those wanting to leave had a far stronger argument, after all - they had more than twenty years start on the opposition.

Just like the President of the USA does not run the country, neither does our own PM - such people head the country, but they each have very limited powers. So for any political reform - it would have to go very deep!

[Alikado]

So you are saying that local councils should be given more power? The majority of local council employees do not have a clue as to Political Governance - they merely follow rules.

There was ample time for people to become more knowledgeable when the referendum to leave the EU came around. Few bothered - and then screamed loudly ' But we did not know' As for your claim that the voting was around 50/50, that was true. But that also took into account over 5 million votes submitted from the colonies and the ex-pats, the majority of which were for remaining in the EU. Understandably, these people were unaware of the arguments for leaving since the only information they had access to was from the BBC overseas broadcasts. The actual vote of people living in the UK was therefore much higher once that number was subtracted, and the arguments for leaving were far higher than the numbers quoted. Once the voting had been held, it was also revealed just how many very wealthy people had used their influence in order to remain in the EU - because they had vested interests in it. So, on bare facts alone - it is obvious that those wanting to leave had a far stronger argument, after all - they had more than twenty years start on the opposition.

Just like the President of the USA does not run the country, neither does our own PM - such people head the country, but they each have very limited powers. So for any political reform - it would have to go very deep!

That is exactly what they have to do, Governance is for Councillors and Chief Officers.

[Toodles McGinty]

There was ample time for people to become more knowledgeable when the referendum to leave the EU came around. Few bothered - and then screamed loudly ' But we did not know'

I think more people were screaming 'we were lied to'.

As for your claim that the voting was around 50/50, that was true. But that also took into account over 5 million votes submitted from the colonies and the ex-pats, the majority of which were for remaining in the EU. Understandably, these people were unaware of the arguments for leaving since the only information they had access to was from the BBC overseas broadcasts.

33.5 million voted in the referendum. No overseas territories were eligible to vote, other than Gibraltar. Less than 35,000 live in Gibraltar. How many of those do you think were eligible to vote? So a full 15% of ALL votes came from Gibraltar and ex-pats? Got any links to support that? Because that is pretty high. Almost unbelievable, in fact.

Why were they unaware of the arguments? Do they live in caves? No internet, newspapers, satellite TV? The ONLY information came from the BBC? Are you absolutely sure of that?

I'd have thought, considering the majority of ex-pats probably live in Europe, they might just want to stay in Europe?

The actual vote of people living in the UK was therefore much higher once that number was subtracted, and the arguments for leaving were far higher than the numbers quoted.

The arguments for leaving didn't count. Votes did. It was roughly 50/50. Whatever BBC overseas said to those poor people relying on it for their only source of information.

Once the voting had been held, it was also revealed just how many very wealthy people had used their influence in order to remain in the EU - because they had vested interests in it.

Which 'very wealthy people' used their influence to remain? I heard some very loud shouts from the 'leave' side - Dyson, the Wetherspoons gobshite, Aaron Banks, Odey, etc. Perhaps the remain contingent realised they could make more money with open markets and frictionless trade, rather than go cap in hand to Donald Trump and the Faroe Isles.

So, on bare facts alone - it is obvious that those wanting to leave had a far stronger argument, after all - they had more than twenty years start on the opposition.

Twenty years start and they still only mustered a little over 50%. The Remain campaign had little over a year, and managed just under 50%. 'So, on bare facts alone', I'd say those wanting to leave hadn't really much of an argument. Given their decades long start.

[local]

It might be useful to ask why the Trusts didn't order PPE for their staff members and ventilators for their patients back in December or January if they "knew" the pandemic was coming.

You can huff and puff about Hancock or Johnson if it suits your politics but it's pointless posturing.

It seems a long time ago but on 31 January 2020, two members of a family of Chinese nationals staying in a hotel in York, one of whom studied at the University of York, became the first confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the UK.
Transmission was confirmed in February.

Its now the 2nd of April and the armchair medics are out in force wanting thousands of ventilators, a testing regime and and and, all from Boris where's my plasters Johnson to be magicked up immediately along with a fully worked and timetabled plan, it is laughable.

Those who "knew" it would come here and "knew it would spread as it has opinions should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

At the very least they could tell us what's going to happen so we could test their new found skills at a later date.

I have a relative who works in the medical testing field and is currently holed up in a hotel so they can work 12 hour shifts for our benefit and they didn't predict the spread.

Compare with other epidemics that didn't get here.

[Alikado]

It might be useful to ask why the Trusts didn't order PPE for their staff members and ventilators for their patients back in December or January if they "knew" the pandemic was coming.

You can huff and puff about Hancock or Johnson if it suits your politics but it's pointless posturing.

It seems a long time ago but on 31 January 2020, two members of a family of Chinese nationals staying in a hotel in York, one of whom studied at the University of York, became the first confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the UK.
Transmission was confirmed in February.

Its now the 2nd of April and the armchair medics are out in force wanting thousands of ventilators, a testing regime and and and, all from Boris where's my plasters Johnson to be magicked up immediately along with a fully worked and timetabled plan, it is laughable.

Those who "knew" it would come here and "knew it would spread as it has opinions should be taken with a large pinch of salt.

At the very least they could tell us what's going to happen so we could test their new found skills at a later date.

I have a relative who works in the medical testing field and is currently holed up in a hotel so they can work 12 hour shifts for our benefit and they didn't predict the spread.

Compare with other epidemics that didn't get here.

I've heard on various news progs and paper reports that supplies just haven't been coming through, probably because they didn't have stock, in days of yore there would have been warehouses loaded up with the non perishables.

[Ceam]

I've heard on various news progs and paper reports that supplies just haven't been coming through, probably because they didn't have stock, in days of yore there would have been warehouses loaded up with the non perishables.

That's the problem with 'just in time' manufacture.

You can't just magic this out of no where, or should I say from a warehouse. Things are made on demand. Which while efficient and cost saving in normal times, Comes tumbling down in times of need.

[sandGroundZero]

said's post #52 includes:

"There was ample time for people to become more knowledgeable when the referendum to leave the EU came around. Few bothered - and then screamed loudly ' But we did not know' As for your claim that the voting was around 50/50, that was true. But that also took into account over 5 million votes submitted from the colonies and the ex-pats, the majority of which were for remaining in the EU. Understandably, these people were unaware of the arguments for leaving since the only information they had access to was from the BBC overseas broadcasts. The actual vote of people living in the UK was therefore much higher once that number was subtracted, and the arguments for leaving were far higher than the numbers quoted. Once the voting had been held, it was also revealed just how many very wealthy people had used their influence in order to remain in the EU - because they had vested interests in it. So, on bare facts alone - it is obvious that those wanting to leave had a far stronger argument, after all - they had more than twenty years start on the opposition."

You have an irrepressible penchant for justifying the result of the 2016 Referendum on the UK's EU membership. LEAVE won; we're out!

"So you are saying that local councils should be given more power?"

I am saying citizens should have more direct and effective input into their local Council's administration. Strange as it sounds, I am advocating obsessives like yourself, along with the rest of us, participate more fully in local government.
You undermine my case.

[local]

I've heard on various news progs and paper reports that supplies just haven't been coming through, probably because they didn't have stock, in days of yore there would have been warehouses loaded up with the non perishables.

The demand is also from entirely new places, care workers and GP surgery's (for those who like to compare it to flu) have never wanted PPE for flu nor closed their surgeries.

That is replicated around the world even funeral workers are wearing PPE never mind members of the public in that frenetic market place people are expecting "Magic" Boris to wave a wand and meet demand overnight.

[Toodles McGinty]

You can huff and puff about Hancock or Johnson if it suits your politics but it's pointless posturing.

It seems a long time ago but on 31 January 2020, two members of a family of Chinese nationals staying in a hotel in York, one of whom studied at the University of York, became the first confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the UK.
Transmission was confirmed in February.

Its now the 2nd of April and the armchair medics are out in force wanting thousands of ventilators, a testing regime and and and, all from Boris where's my plasters Johnson to be magicked up immediately along with a fully worked and timetabled plan, it is laughable.

Oh dear. You do get upset when your darling is criticised, don't you?

Even Donald Trump with his tiny hands and tiny brain realised Johnson and Cumming's 'herd immunity' plan was a complete and utter disaster. It has cost hundreds of unnecessary deaths, if not thousands eventually.

"A lot of people were saying: 'Let's just ride it out'.If you remember, they were looking at that concept - I guess it's a concept if you don't mind death, a lot of death - but they were looking at that in the UK, remember."

2000 tests of 500,000 NHS staff,. to date

Cheltenham festival, Liverpool v Atletico Madrid (3500 away fans), bragging about shaking hands with virus infected people, bull******** the public - now we pay the price.

Compare that with Germany, which reacted quickly as reports of the virus emerged from China at the end of last year. It began producing a test for covid-19 in January, weeks before the U.K. Germany now has the capacity to do 500,000 tests a week. And rising.

German minister on the radio recently, was asked why Germany were able to test 10 times more people daily than the UK: "Germany is politically committed to testing everyone who needs it"

Johnson put Brexit over the health of U.K. citizens by refusing to participate in EU joint procurement schemes.

It isn't the job of anyone holed up in hotel rooms to 'predict' these things. It is the job of the government. Then even when it was blatantly obvious the virus was spreading, the government still did nothing. Still kept pubs and schools open. Deliberately allowed the spread of a deadly virus just so they could 'wait and see'.

You don't need to be an 'armchair medic' to see the facts in front of you.

[said]

That is exactly what they have to do, Governance is for Councillors and Chief Officers.

You could well be right!

https://web.archive.org/web/20120508...-card-2011.pdf

https://www.euractiv.com/section/ene...recovery-plan/

[Toodles McGinty]

Interesting video here.

Nick Ferrari, LBC radio, basically lives up Johnson's backside (only not quite as far up as someone on here), criticising the government for their negligent reaction to this situation.