Originally Posted by Lamparilla

Why don't these dinosaurs realise that pre-Christmas strikes just alienate their customers? You know - customers - the ones that ultimately pay their wages.

Time for the posties to announce one any time now.

The customers are Arriva's, the idea of the strike is to alienate them to put pressure on Arriva.

Originally Posted by Ceam

Yes really, Well unless you want your bus running late.

gazaprop do you have any knowledge of what they have to do? Or is it just your perception of what you expect to be happening?

You tell me how they make what was already a very tight time table work, when they now have to negotiate all the 20mph zones.


Don't get me wrong it's also about wages. Like everyone else they have been squeezed for years. There is always a breaking point. I guess the drivers have found theirs.

I do have some experience in a roughly similar field operating large vehicles with reduced resources and increased expectations - experience both at the coal face and in the office.
I also know that when change or increased productivity is needed there are those who'll jump up and down like a ten bob rocket putting all kinds of obstructions in the way.
The reality is that almost all work sectors are going through similar processes and do find a way forward. The problem is invariably the unions who view anything and everything as an opportunity to puff out their chest and rabble rouse.
I suspect that the solution will indeed be a reduced level of service which may ultimately be the employers intention.

Originally Posted by gazaprop

I do have some experience in a roughly similar field operating large vehicles with reduced resources and increased expectations - experience both at the coal face and in the office.
I also know that when change or increased productivity is needed there are those who'll jump up and down like a ten bob rocket putting all kinds of obstructions in the way.
The reality is that almost all work sectors are going through similar processes and do find a way forward. The problem is invariably the unions who view anything and everything as an opportunity to puff out their chest and rabble rouse.
I suspect that the solution will indeed be a reduced level of service which may ultimately be the employers intention.

I'll ask again...

You tell me how they make what was already a very tight time table work, when they now have to negotiate all the 20mph zones.

Originally Posted by Ceam

I'll ask again...

You tell me how they make what was already a very tight time table work, when they now have to negotiate all the 20mph zones.

There you go again - relying on your un-reliable anecdotal evidence to try and establish fact - it can't be done.

Are they tight? Who said they were tight - was it the management or the drivers?
Who has complained - is the passengers or the drivers?
Why has it taken until now to raise the 20 mph factor because lots of these restrictions have been in place for some considerable time.
Are the management instructing drivers to ignore speed limits or driver hours?
If you have reliable evidence that this is the case then you should approach the relevant authority with this evidence because they would be acting unlawfully.

Originally Posted by Ceam

I'll ask again...

You tell me how they make what was already a very tight time table work, when they now have to negotiate all the 20mph zones.

Put quite simply, they don’t have to. The drivers responsiblity is to drive in a safe manner whilst observing and obeying speed limits and all other traffic regulations. If by obeying the speed limits they are unable to achieve the schedules they are given, it is the fault of the operators and the planners. As for working 8 hour shifts without a break, this simply cannot happen. Professional drivers, by law, have to take breaks after so long behind the wheel, and no operator can make them do otherwise.
Incidentally, in case you are wondering, I spent my whole career in the transport industry, both as a driver, and an operator, so I do have an idea what I’m talking about.

Originally Posted by gazaprop

There you go again - relying on your un-reliable anecdotal evidence to try and establish fact - it can't be done.

Are they tight? Who said they were tight - was it the management or the drivers?
Who has complained - is the passengers or the drivers?
Why has it taken until now to raise the 20 mph factor because lots of these restrictions have been in place for some considerable time.
Are the management instructing drivers to ignore speed limits or driver hours?
If you have reliable evidence that this is the case then you should approach the relevant authority with this evidence because they would be acting unlawfully.

Yes they are tight, I've already told you that, and that comes from drivers.
Yes the 20mph zones have been in for some time, and the arguments for changing the time table has been going on since even before that. The strike is partly for this very reason. Am I not making that very clear?

So when talks fail, what are the options left?


Justbecause.. " If by obeying the speed limits they are unable to achieve the schedules they are given, it is the fault of the operators and the planners"


Yet they won't do anything to change it. So yet again what do the drivers do if talks can't sort it out.


Any way my original point was it's not just about pay. You can believe or disbelieve what I've posted that's your choice. Just giving the drivers a fair hearing.


This is conservatism at it's best, divide and conquer. How dare anyone ask for better conditions or salary, after several years of them depleting.
WE'RE ALL IN IT TOGETHER....

Well unless your not of course. :-)

As I may have misled people in my enthusiasm to get my point across, I will correct one thing I said though, Just to clarify they do have meal breaks, but if they are caught short there is no time at a turnaround for them to relieve themselves, Big enough to say when I'm wrong.

Not bothered,,,,,i walk to work.

Originally Posted by Ceam

Yes they are tight, I've already told you that, and that comes from drivers.
Yes the 20mph zones have been in for some time, and the arguments for changing the time table has been going on since even before that. The strike is partly for this very reason. Am I not making that very clear?

So when talks fail, what are the options left?


Justbecause.. " If by obeying the speed limits they are unable to achieve the schedules they are given, it is the fault of the operators and the planners"


Yet they won't do anything to change it. So yet again what do the drivers do if talks can't sort it out.


Any way my original point was it's not just about pay. You can believe or disbelieve what I've posted that's your choice. Just giving the drivers a fair hearing.


This is conservatism at it's best, divide and conquer. How dare anyone ask for better conditions or salary, after several years of them depleting.
WE'RE ALL IN IT TOGETHER....

Well unless your not of course. :-)

As I may have misled people in my enthusiasm to get my point across, I will correct one thing I said though, Just to clarify they do have meal breaks, but if they are caught short there is no time at a turnaround for them to relieve themselves, Big enough to say when I'm wrong.

Like I said in my previous post, the drivers do NOT have to exceed speed limits. If drivers choose to speed they only have themselves to blame. If they stick to the limits and consistently fail to achieve schedules, Arriva will have no option but to change them.
Just to clear up one point, this strike is solely about wages. Arriva have offered a 2.75% increase which the Unions have rejected.

Originally Posted by justbecause

Just to clear up one point, this strike is solely about wages. Arriva have offered a 2.75% increase which the Unions have rejected.

If that's true then I have been misled.

Originally Posted by Ceam

If that's true then I have been misled.

Strangely enough that was exactly my point about anecdotal evidence being unreliable.

There's an element in any dispute of 'well they would say that wouldn't they' from both sides.
Any protagonist will paint things from their perspective and to show themselves in the best possible light - it's human nature.
My initial point was more to do with the unions and them using this dispute to puff their chests out.
The offer, in today's climate, is a decent one and I still believe the employer will be rubbing their hands with glee the longer this strike goes on. As I said previously - empty buses with a driver on wages burning fuel against less drivers with less buses burning less fuel - it's a no brainer.
It always happens this way - if an improved offer is made it will be at the expense of jobs, but this will be trumpeted by the union as a great victory.
No improved offer - working men and women will have lost wages just so some wally in a hi-viz union vest can strut up and down outside the depot clutching his clipboard, calling everyone brother or sister.

Originally Posted by Alikado

The customers are Arriva's, the idea of the strike is to alienate them to put pressure on Arriva.

And Arriva will retaliate with compulsory redundancies due to falling revenue.

Originally Posted by Lamparilla

And Arriva will retaliate with compulsory redundancies due to falling revenue.

........then another company will step in to run the route, probably a British company paying tax.

Its not arriva being affected by the strike action its the public. Whilst they stood round striking at offices arriva are saving money on fuel so won't affect days takings as the non use of fuel will compensate for loss of takings. They should use the buses but not take bus fares off people that will affect them more

Originally Posted by REVIVEDRIVE

Its not arriva being affected by the strike action its the public. Whilst they stood round striking at offices arriva are saving money on fuel so won't affect days takings as the non use of fuel will compensate for loss of takings. They should use the buses but not take bus fares off people that will affect them more

That's actually a good idea.

Originally Posted by Ceam

That's actually a good idea.

And would likely be grounds for dismissal for gross misconduct!