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  1. #1
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    Was Corbyn right to sack Smith?

    "Owen Smith says he "stood by his principles" in calling for another EU referendum - a move which resulted in his sacking from Labour's shadow cabinet.

    The former shadow Northern Ireland secretary said Jeremy Corbyn had made a "mistake" in firing him.

    He also said the party should "shift its position" on Brexit.

    Mr Smith was asked to stand down on Friday after he wrote an article for the Guardian calling for a second vote."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43524945





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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    "Owen Smith says he "stood by his principles" in calling for another EU referendum - a move which resulted in his sacking from Labour's shadow cabinet.

    The former shadow Northern Ireland secretary said Jeremy Corbyn had made a "mistake" in firing him.

    He also said the party should "shift its position" on Brexit.

    Mr Smith was asked to stand down on Friday after he wrote an article for the Guardian calling for a second vote."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43524945
    Absolutely right! He should have sacked the other waste of space too - Chuka Umunna. They each have their own personal agenda which is in conflict with the electorate and should not be in parliament at all.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    Absolutely right! He should have sacked the other waste of space too - Chuka Umunna. They each have their own personal agenda which is in conflict with the electorate and should not be in parliament at all.
    As Socialists go I like Chuka Umunna.

    What about Diane Abbott.?

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    As Socialists go I like Chuka Umunna.

    What about Diane Abbott.?
    Smith has been sacked from the front benches over what he said about Brexit. Dianne Abbot said almost exactly the same thing in a public letter - why has she not been sacked? As always - Labour are not consistent!

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    Smith has been sacked from the front benches over what he said about Brexit. Dianne Abbot said almost exactly the same thing in a public letter - why has she not been sacked? As always - Labour are not consistent!
    Abbott stated she wanted a Parliamentary vote. At least when asked to clarify her statement...

    I think Smith has been on shaky ground for a while. He was fortunate to be let back into the fold after his leadership challenge. He knew when he was given the Northern Ireland job that he'd have to toe the party line. That goes for anyone in any cabinet or shadow cabinet. To think otherwise is foolish or arrogant.

    Personally I think Smith is right to want another referendum. Only this time stating the final terms of Brexit in simple English. The decision was initially made with no information whatsoever.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    Just as long as we regain our fishing industry to a radius of 200m, a fair deal for our local farmers (not the international corporate farmers) and that legislation is decided in the UK, the rest will follow. Not bothered about a single market since most of our transactions with the EU have been steadily decreasing for a number of years.
    Nobody will be bothered about fishing upto 200 metres from our shores.
    In todays Sunday Telegraph it says that fishing will continue as is.
    The fishing quotas are already in the hands of Foreign Boats, 88% of the Welsh quota is in the hands of a British Company which owns and runs a boat registered, based and serviced in Viga Spain.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    But we were expected to vote 'yes / no' on a deal that hadn't been made, with no information but a tissue of lies from one side and little more than apathy from the other.

    It's like going into a car showroom:
    The salesman says 'do you want to buy a car?
    You say 'yes'.
    The salesman says 'OK, I'll go and get you a car'.
    You say 'hold on, what make, model and price of this car? What's the mileage? What colour?''.
    Salesman says 'I haven't decided yet. You'll get a car. You said you want a car, so you're getting a car'.

    That we were expected to vote on something the government had no clue about at the time, and that still hasn't got much of an idea even now, is frankly bizarre.

    Political parties publish detailed manifestos prior to an election. OK not many people read them thoroughly, but the media highlights the salient points. This would give the public more information than we were given prior to the referendum . Particularly given the facts that it is quite possible that parts of the campaign (Cambridge Analytica, Vote Leave exceeding legal spending limits etc) were possibly against EU referendum laws.
    There was loads of information in the consequences of voting leave.
    If it is true the Government did not think the leave vote would win then it is also true remainers believed the same.

    The Remain campaign relied on calling leavers racist that was unforgiveable and if anything led to voters hiding their preference for Brexit.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    Your logic is crackers!
    The answer to the referendum was a yes or no, and so would be the answer to a second final referendum BUT both referendums would require an understanding of very complex matters, and that is why the first referendum didn't make sense.

    It was a referendum that only UKIP wanted. The Conservatives didn't want it. The Labour didn't want it. The LibDems didn't want. And, the vast majority of Mps didn't want it.

    I think that should tell us something.

    The sane approach would be to have a vote on the final agreement.

    But, I can tell you now, even if the vast majority of experts, who did have grasp of all the complexities of the agreement - considered that the conditions of the final agreement to be highly disastrous to the UK's economy/future etc, you would still have a pile of nutters screaming that their original "out vote"must still be honoured.
    ?The electorate constantly request a EU referendum review.


    Quote
    ............ Many have tried and failed since then to hold another

    The Labour Party’s attempt to win the country’s 1983 election on a platform of withdrawing from the EEC resulted in failure, with the Conservative government led by Margaret Thatcher being re-elected by a considerable margin.

    Fourteen years later, four years after the EEC became the E.U. through the 1993 Maastricht Treaty, the newly formed Referendum Party of Sir James Goldsmith contested the 1997 general elections with a promise to hold a referendum on U.K. membership to the union. However, it only managed to win about 2.6% of the vote and did not capture a single seat in parliament.

    Cameron made a promise, and kept it

    The current U.K. Prime Minister, David Cameron, rejected calls for a referendum on his country’s continued membership of the E.U. in 2012, but announced less than a year later that his Conservative government would hold one if re-elected in 2015.

    Soon after he was voted in for a second term, the European Union Referendum Act 2015 was introduced in the British Parliament to kickstart the process that culminated on Friday.

    Subsequently, in a speech to the Parliament’s House of Commons in February 2016, Cameron announced that the referendum would be held on June 23. A staunch advocate of remaining within the E.U., Cameron announced his resignation soon after the results of the vote were declared on Friday.


    http://time.com/4381184/uk-brexit-eu...endum-cameron/

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    Your logic is crackers!
    The answer to the referendum was a yes or no, and so would be the answer to a second final referendum BUT both referendums would require an understanding of very complex matters, and that is why the first referendum didn't make sense.

    It was a referendum that only UKIP wanted. The Conservatives didn't want it. The Labour didn't want it. The LibDems didn't want. And, the vast majority of Mps didn't want it.

    I think that should tell us something.

    The sane approach would be to have a vote on the final agreement.

    But, I can tell you now, even if the vast majority of experts, who did have grasp of all the complexities of the agreement - considered that the conditions of the final agreement to be highly disastrous to the UK's economy/future etc, you would still have a pile of nutters screaming that their original "out vote"must still be honoured.
    There is a strong legal argument that says that the UK was never in the EU.

    You are wrong to claim that none of the other parties were for Brexit - it was not favoured to start with and each of the parties contained many members who were Eurosceptic.

    Nigel Farage, was a member of the Conservative Party from 1978 until he joined UKIP. UKIP was formed, conveniently at the same time that the BNP, much to the Conservatives chagrin, were becoming popular. Nigel Farage had already made a name for himself having often argued with Cameron in Parliament on the topics of British interest. In the years just before the referendum, UKIP had been gaining in popularity - possibly aided by the Government. Cameron had continually had meetings with the EU, Merkel in particular - to request certain changes to EU legislations that were detrimental to the UK. He was turned down or ignored on every occasion. Cameron was publically embarrassed when it was declared that he was to meet with the EU in the November of 2015 to seek changes in EU legislation that would be beneficial to the UK. Again David Cameron was turned down, and a meeting was rescheduled for January 2016. Again his request was turned down by Merkel, even though Cameron informed the EU that the UK was becoming very restless. The media made much of it showing cartoons of Merkel as a Queen or Britannia. By this time, UKIP had become very popular since the general public realised that the EU had no intention of listening to our leaders. By the time that the referendum was scheduled - unlike in the Scottish Independence referendum - there was no serious opposition from the Government, indeed most of the MP's agreed with Brexit - this was not discovered until after the referendum since it would have affected the outcome. Brexit was a combined effort for the betterment of the UK - there was no choice.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by said View Post
    There is a strong legal argument that says that the UK was never in the EU.

    You are wrong to claim that none of the other parties were for Brexit - it was not favoured to start with and each of the parties contained many members who were Eurosceptic.

    Nigel Farage, was a member of the Conservative Party from 1978 until he joined UKIP. UKIP was formed, conveniently at the same time that the BNP, much to the Conservatives chagrin, were becoming popular. Nigel Farage had already made a name for himself having often argued with Cameron in Parliament on the topics of British interest. In the years just before the referendum, UKIP had been gaining in popularity - possibly aided by the Government. Cameron had continually had meetings with the EU, Merkel in particular - to request certain changes to EU legislations that were detrimental to the UK. He was turned down or ignored on every occasion. Cameron was publically embarrassed when it was declared that he was to meet with the EU in the November of 2015 to seek changes in EU legislation that would be beneficial to the UK. Again David Cameron was turned down, and a meeting was rescheduled for January 2016. Again his request was turned down by Merkel, even though Cameron informed the EU that the UK was becoming very restless. The media made much of it showing cartoons of Merkel as a Queen or Britannia. By this time, UKIP had become very popular since the general public realised that the EU had no intention of listening to our leaders. By the time that the referendum was scheduled - unlike in the Scottish Independence referendum - there was no serious opposition from the Government, indeed most of the MP's agreed with Brexit - this was not discovered until after the referendum since it would have affected the outcome. Brexit was a combined effort for the betterment of the UK - there was no choice.
    Well, as according to you, as most of the Mps wanted Brexit - at the time -you should be confident that if they were given a free vote on the final agreement then they would still want to leave.
    With that in mind, what would be your objections to Mps - having scrutinised the final agreement - being allowed to vote for what they believe would be best for the UK.

  12. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by xroads View Post
    Well, as according to you, as most of the Mps wanted Brexit - at the time -you should be confident that if they were given a free vote on the final agreement then they would still want to leave.
    With that in mind, what would be your objections to Mps - having scrutinised the final agreement - being allowed to vote for what they believe would be best for the UK.

    This is the text on the leaflet that was distributed to everyone
    before the EU referendum.


    From Prime Minister Mr David Cameron:

    ?Your decision. Nobody else?s. Not politicians?, not Parliament?s.
    Not lobby groups?. Not mine. Just you. You, the British people,
    will decide.


    ?At that moment, you will hold this country?s destiny in your
    hands. This is a huge decision for our country, perhaps the
    biggest we will make in our lifetimes. And it will be the final
    decision.


    The sooner we are out of that socialist hell hole, the better.
    Orwell said "If there is hope, it lies in the proles." Whilst champagne socialists see diversity idealised at university, the common folk experience it first hand in their neighbour hoods.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    There was loads of information in the consequences of voting leave.
    Yes, a large bus with a pack of lies splashed across the side. The likes of Farage bellowing that we'd take our money, our borders and our trade back. Our money is just fine, we were never going to adopt the Euro. We have all the border control we need, we just haven't got a government who will use those laws. We will, however, have lots of Asians and Africans given free reign to live and work here. As for trade, well that is anyone's guess. It will involve a trade treaty with the EU, whatever happens. Only with greater tariffs.

    The Remain campaign relied on calling leavers racist that was unforgiveable and if anything led to voters hiding their preference for Brexit.
    Not all, but only an idiot would suggest that a good deal of ardent Brexiteers voted through sheer xenophobia. It isn't a coincidence that Cambridge Analytica targeted both the Trump campaign and Brexit, and no coincidence that both Bannon and Farage are in it up to their necks. There's a clear parallel between Brexit voters and wearers of red Make America Great Again caps.

    Goodness knows what will happen when the shortfall in jobs the British won't do is taken up by people not only from a foreign county, but a different skin colour.

  14. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    Yes, a large bus with a pack of lies splashed across the side. The likes of Farage bellowing that we'd take our money, our borders and our trade back. Our money is just fine, we were never going to adopt the Euro. We have all the border control we need, we just haven't got a government who will use those laws. We will, however, have lots of Asians and Africans given free reign to live and work here. As for trade, well that is anyone's guess. It will involve a trade treaty with the EU, whatever happens. Only with greater tariffs.



    Not all, but only an idiot would suggest that a good deal of ardent Brexiteers voted through sheer xenophobia. It isn't a coincidence that Cambridge Analytica targeted both the Trump campaign and Brexit, and no coincidence that both Bannon and Farage are in it up to their necks. There's a clear parallel between Brexit voters and wearers of red Make America Great Again caps.

    Goodness knows what will happen when the shortfall in jobs the British won't do is taken up by people not only from a foreign county, but a different skin colour.
    These 'jobs' that Brits won't do?
    I have always felt they must have had a good reason.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamble View Post
    These 'jobs' that Brits won't do?
    I have always felt they must have had a good reason.
    Really? Why?

    There are jobs, mainly in agriculture, that are low wages for back breaking work. I saw an article, think it was the BBC, that showed young Brits doing the picking, packing etc that migrant workers traditionally do. Most didn't last an hour.

    Now take a migrant workforce and a good £ / Euro exchange rate and we've got the produce picked and packed.

    As it is, the pound is low, migrant workers don't know if they will be able to work freely here from the EU, so produce is rotting in the fields and orchards.

    Financial Times article

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toodles McGinty View Post
    Really? Why?

    There are jobs, mainly in agriculture, that are low wages for back breaking work. I saw an article, think it was the BBC, that showed young Brits doing the picking, packing etc that migrant workers traditionally do. Most didn't last an hour.

    Now take a migrant workforce and a good £ / Euro exchange rate and we've got the produce picked and packed.

    As it is, the pound is low, migrant workers don't know if they will be able to work freely here from the EU, so produce is rotting in the fields and orchards.

    Financial Times article
    I have no doubt that seasonal farm work is back breaking and low paid
    and I have every respect for these migrants.
    Brits have family's and children to get to school.They have mortgages and cars to run.
    They do not adapt well to sleeping in workers dormitory's even if chauffeur driven to work.

    A lot of out of work people would not survive a job on the land.

    So let the stuff rot and perhaps the farmers will pay wages that fit and healthy Brits can live on.

    Sorry the Financial Times link did not work.
    Last edited by Hamble; 26/03/2018 at 04:02 PM.

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